No. This is not like which came first.
It is about who exists. Only we or We and GOD.

I think i will explain it a bit more.

One thing that is definition of creation. It means
A thing starts to exsists which was at first place not present.

First part "GOD created MEN".
This is simple as it is.

Second "MEN created GOD"
This points out that we have "CREATED" GOD. He never was. Now why we did it, it is a long story.

So "joy_s" can i have your question rephrased for more clearence.

Sry i dont wana insult anyone if my words r odd then sry for that cuz i dont hv a rite to make comment on one's blv n cant claim one's faith anyhow really sry n plz dont feel offended take care guyz......God bless u!!

hmm The Theory Of Evolution.....I do blv in, if u juz examine that human being is evolved, without taking the view of the chain frm whch we r evolved then definately u conclude that its impossible but if u see it in the order from simplest to complex u can see that how amazing the ladder of evolution is.......evolution in minor steps.......the arrangement is amazing anyhow we can also found its evidences in Quran-e-Pak.....well its long term topic n takes time u can raise question i will Inshallah give u the answer           
                     
Best of Luck
Allahg Nighebaan

LOL

Ok, U said that we have evolved, then tell me why a bacteria is still bacteria. Why it never evolved. It is there as it was for millions of years. The point of chain, according to scientist from which we come, by itself is in disarray. From where did the chain starts?

You said we evolved. While we evolved, why didnt we had four arms, three eye, one in back of head. You said "Ladder of Evolution from simple to complex". Do u know how complex we are.

We have 38 billion types of white blood cells in our body. Fixed amount of types of white blood cells from first Man on face of Earth to till date. Strange, no evolution since then. We need it more then ever todays as there are soo many diseases around now-a-days.

Talking more on our complexity, Do u know we have two brains. Right erebellum and left erebellum. Every one of us. They work independently, only they are connected with think band of nerve fibers. You operate and cutdown that fiber communication ,and you have you have two person. You might have seen people in movies having split brains, not split personality. They act so wieredly. One hand is beating a person and other is stoping the hand which is beating. Imagine this scene, people will be thinking u are a maniace, but u are not, u are having two person in one.
And who does the brain nerves work, it is ASTONISHING. We are electro-chemical mechinary.

And after the theory of darwin another scientist proved it false.
people often confuse scientific fact with scientific theory. And Mark Ridley was one of the scients to prove it wrong.

And what is in quran is TOTALLY different from THEORY OF EVOLUTION. You give me the referencr and i can tell u what does it mean.

Yes u guessed it right, I am not a BIOLOGY student and i am sure that u wont be either. But as u are a female and if are are in college and have a very good academic background, then there are 90% chances that u are in this field. But it will be shocking for me if u turn out to be one. But u just cannot underdog my knowledge in many subjects. I have a habit of reading. I am by profession a COMPUTER SOFTWARE ENGINEER, but i have read books of philosophy,physics and Psychlogy which are for graduates and masters.

Yes u are right. And your point SUPPORTS my point of view. You said

"Every thing is changing n has to change but sum specific rules r applied, r u sure that the bacteria evolved thousand yrs ago is same as the bacteria present today??? CERTAINLY NOT"

These r your words, not mine. now from bacteria to bacteria; evolution is understandable. but from bacteria to MAN, LOL. Funny. You said, that there is difference between "EVOLUTION" and "SPECIATION". This is what i say. "SPECIATION" can only occur if there is any.

Yes they do, process of evolutionary through developmental process, like u said; reduced teeth in bucal cavity, doctors now-a-days cut out that organ.
First Point, bucal cavity, is to be poundered about that from where did bucal cavity came from. If it was not present then definatly it came into existence, And the point refers back, from where it came from. You said EVOLVED, this means it was present and then redefined it-self for better functioning. And i say EVOLUTION can onlt be disscussed only if we know who and when it came into existence. From BACTERIA? I dont think soo.

Second point,cutting down the organ, If it is so useless, then why it is not gone. Have u not studied the famous experiment in which a doctor, i forgot the name, cutdown down the tail for 22 generation of mouse but it reproducted as if it was present in the parent.

For more information, our DNA is the genetic code of ourself. It tells that how many eyes we are going to have, where they will be placed, what colour will they have.....every thing. DNA is genetic code. And from there we inherit it. If it is not in our parents, It is not going to be in us.

I have read third paragraph thrice, but it seems it supports me. If i am not right, re-write it so that i can understand which i fail to undersatnd this time.

And please quote what is ther in QURAN which leads u to think like that. SO that i able too see it too. As far as i have read it, there is nothing like "THEORY of EVOLUTION". It clearly says "AUR HUM NAI TUM KO JORAY JORAY PAIDA KIA".

And your last post do not contain anything in-responce to what i wrote in the las paragraph of my previous post. I am waiting.

And what is your line of study and interests.

First, I think we should lay some ground rules to this.

what i want to say is that i do beleive in SPECIATION but not in EVOLUTION. Two different termenologies. And we can only talk about SPECIATION if there were any species. It all starts from the bing bang theory. Anfter the bin bang, according to science, nothing could have existed on the earth due to its temperature and atmosphere. Now from here i started the disscussion. By suppossing the bacteria,the simplest complete microorganism, came into being. And from there onward how did it evolved into human beings.

If u still dont get my point, from where i am starting or any thing else, write it in the next post and i will consider it again.

I know about the mutation but mutation can not be held responsible for changing the STRUCTURE OF DNA. We can inherit chromosomes from our parents but they are fixed in number,23 i guess. but it is not possible that we get 22 or 24 with changed DNA. By mutation of DNA we mean the ADDITION or SUBTRACTION of any of its element. By element i mean Cytosine, Guanine, Adenine, and Thymine which are the building structure of DNA.

And are U victim of beleiving what is not proved RIGHT YET. Come on ........... how u can beleive on a thing which is not proved right yet.

But do tell me what u read in QURAN, because what u said in it, it is can not be interperated like BACTERIA BECOMING A MAN.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm MADAM, then what line of interest do u have.........................in field of study. ;i hope u got the TWO qutestions i asked in one question.

And about physics i like it very much and it is quite simple, play by the rules. Straight and Logical.

And whay dont u tell something more about yourself.

Last edited by hussain_ahmad (16-03-2006 00:20:11)

U said "parts evolve and get better". This is from the second line of your last reply.

If u consider it, there are two parts of it. "parts evolve" and "get better". Two different things. First goes with "Theory of evolution" and second goes with "Speciation".

I told u that "Theory of evolution" is what i totaly disagree with. "Speciation" is acceptable.

And mind u that that stucture of DNA can not be influenced by any "Environmental change".

And if science does not know for sure that how and what form of life appeared on earth and how did it evolved, then how it is that still people think that "theory of evolution" is right. Science say it is only a theory and there is no fact or evidence found for it.

Again u say "changes occur from species to species". My point is from where the first specie came from, and how it came.

As YOU illustrated that defferent species have different distinct and fixed amount of chromosomes, then tell me how it happened that it started from first specie. There would have been only one specie at starting time. So if it had, let say 10, pair of chromosomes in it; then who and from where its next generation got the different number of chromosomes?

Ibeleive u know the meaning of VICTIM.
And from that i mean, WHAT IS THE POITN or WHY u think that a thing is right. Eventhough that thing is not even proved right yet.

And hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

You are asking the right question."What else u wnat to KNOW about me?"
It is different from "What else u want to ASK me about?". So i only want u to tell anything u want and can tell. I wont be asking.

Last edited by hussain_ahmad (17-03-2006 00:45:25)

Well thats very starnge...................I try to be clear atmost and short too. My last post, i think it is a good example. I am getting your point but u are not able to get mine; i think.

List me the EXACT LINE AND WORDS which u r not able to understand from the last post, so that i can know what is wrong with my style of writing. People praise my speach and writing for its deep anaylysis and clearity. It is really hard at start, people who are new to me say the same. But as they spend time with me, they start to understand what i mean. I can understand your furstration. It is mainly because i am VERY CAREFUL about my selection of words. I try to use them to their true value.

And the idea of talking online and convincing me about the "THEORY OF EVOLUTION"......................... i dont think u will make it; make me to beleive what u think. Other then that, i dont come online frequently. But u can have your best shot. i have mailed u my MSN address.

Inform me if u have received it. If not then mail me yours.

Well............good to see a new participent.

You are right. But actually you are going the other way around. You said that
"Rather than debating the finer points of evolution, I prefer to look at the existence of God from the greater perspective of the universe."

What u said in your first post refers to a "theory" called "Unified Field Theory". I am not trying to conlcude the existence of GOD on the basis of some theory. I prefer to get the answer by LOGIC. No theories, no assumptions.

Well, other beside that, the theory is very good. But not completey. The point u reaised "Universe is infinite", how can one say it. U can not say it is infinite because u have not found its limit. There is a possibility that we have not traversed it enough. And what if there is another totally different world at the limit of universe. There is a rescent new concept of "Multiverse". You can get information about that too. It is really interseting topic.

And u said
"God is Man and Man is God. We created ourselves". There are two parts. First, "God is Man and Man is God". I dont agree to it because from this i can conculed that "Man is Universe and Universe is Man". Which is abviously not true. And u said in your post "As we are part of the universe, we are therefore part of God"; This is the last line of third paragraph of your post. As u said that we are part of God, is different from Man is God. I hope u got the difference between the two. Second, "We created ourselves", is also a logically wrong. If we created ourself then this means that we didnt existed in the first place and if we didnt existed then how can we create ourselves.

so the question "Why" u asked is a long way ahead.

Hi Hussain,

I understand logic and theory to be interdependant. A theory is shown to be either true or false depending upon observable results. A true theory is therefore a rule. Logic depends upon rules for evaluation. In addition, logic depends upon an initial set of assumptions to start from. Regardless, these are simply methods that we use to understand and explain what we experience in the universe. The unified field theory will explain the entire workings of the universe and it will be true until proven otherwise - in which case it will no longer be the unified field theory!

I think that you prefer not to deal in theories but in hard fact that you can observe. Our observation of the universe is such that it appears to be infinite. The closer we look, the smaller the fundamental components become - I think the current smallest is something called a 'string'. The current Big Bang theory which is so far observably true as it has not been proven otherwise, explains how the universe is continuing to expand and within our dimensions of space and time the universe does appear to be infinite.

But infinite is a relative concept. I am sure that outside of the four dimensions of space-time, our universe could well be viewed as absolute. And there is no reason to disagree that outside of space-time there may well be multiple universes.

Anyway, let's get back to God. Can you give me your definition of the term 'God'? If you had to write the dictionary definition, according to your personal belief - what would it be?

Look forward to the next installment,
Michael

I think evolution took place due to survival of the fittest - that is how!

A child play with words - I an unsure - but words are all we have to play with :-)

Actually, the unified theory is not a theory at all - it doesn't exist yet. So far it is just an idea!

I wonder how old you are now. I raised the idea of a string to illustrate that the closer we look the smaller things get. The universe being infinitely small as well as infinitely large.

I agree with you, God is Creator. As is man. We are continually creating our own experience in each and every moment. So God is Man and Man is God still holds true. Or maybe you would prefer the more logically correct version of - part of God is man and man is part of God.

Returning to the point of who created who - to say that we created ourselves may be logically wrong but it is possible to change form. From an evolution perspective, we created ourselves from amoeba, which is a considerable change in form. Maybe we created ourselves from a different form of being. The nature of being alive is so fantastic that I can understand why I may have chosen to create myself. And in fact when I die I can understand why I will probably choose to create myself anew. Wouldn't you if you had the choice?

Bia

really, i thought it was of your interest. But anyways..........

Micheal

I have had a really long discussion on evolution with Sky Soz and i dont feel like going through again. You can read post 7, 10, 12, 14, 16. And if u r wondering who old i am, make a guess. I will tell u my age in the next post; after your guess.
And about GOD and MEN being creator, i still dont agree. Because we knew we were not on this planet at first. And then suddenly we were. This point out to our CREATION. And i beleive that this point out to the existense of GOD.